The Evangelion Movies: 2.22 You Can (not) Advance, pt 1
Some months ago, I decided that I was going to do writeups for each of the new Evangelion movies, collectively called "The Rebuild of Evangelion". This had the horrible timing of being at a time when my life suddenly got ridiculously busy, to the point where it took over seven months to complete the first movie's writeups. At the end of the last writeup, I even expressed some doubt over whether or not I'd even attempt the second movie.
I have only abandoned one writeup series. This will not become the second. It's too ripe for my kind of writeup, I just can't let it pass unhindered. So I promise to do this movie, and faster than seven months. Deal? Deal. So let's get right to it! The first movie was pretty much a shot-for-shot retelling of the first six or so episodes from the original TV show, though with a graphics upgrade and slightly less whiny Shinji... will the second film follow the same pattern?
That would be a big "nope." Right off the bat, we're dropped into a scene that didn't exist in the show, with a new, unnamed pilot. Stranger, much of it is in English, though stiff and stilted. Eh, must be British. Weird to see Japanese subtitles in an anime... anyway, this is the "troublemaker" pilot of Eva-05, which appears to be some sort of test unit. There's an Angel attack under way, and this is, apparently, the first run of the unit. Clearly, this will go nothing but well.
Oh, him we've seen before, though. His name is Kaji, and he's some sort of double-triple agent spy for one faction or other... SEELE, NERV, S.H.I.E.L.D., ASPCA, whatever. He showed up in the TV series to give Misato someone to sleep with, and who was then promptly shot. Here, though, he appears to be present in some sort of advisory position to the... Russian?... Eva base. As it turns out, the attacking Angel isn't a real Angel, it's the animated bones of the dead Third Angel, the one that caused the Second Impact fifteen years ago, and we're in Antarctica, where the Second Impact occurred. None of this is explained, nor even inferred by the movie... I had to look it up. Good storytelling, Evangelion!. Kaji bugs out, and we return to...
It appears the Third Angel was a duck. Well, yeah. We still haven't had a clear look at the new Eva unit, though it appears to have wheels instead of legs. A short fight ensues, the Duck Angel nearly defeats Eva-05, but at the last moment the Angel is defeated as the Eva self-destructs.
So that's it for the new Eva, the new pilot, and it all goes boom in a pink cloud. Seems like something of a waste, don'tcha think? All that excitement over a new character, and she's gone *boop* just like that!
Or, y'know, not. Here she is, glasses and everything. It's not like Gainax isn't trying to hit all the fetishes the TV show missed or anything. Still don't know her name, though... or even that we'll see her again. She IS floating in an ejected entry plug in a sea of Angel blood near what was Antarctica, after all. Oh, and the nearest base was just wiped out, too. Yup, gonna be a long time until she sees rescue.
Time to pause and refresh before we get into the real film! Go ahead, I'll still be here. I don't mind.
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Misato's face in that screenshot with the two brats is pretty much my expression at the prospect of ever actually watching anything "Evangelion"-related ever again.
Thanks for doing this so nobody else has to, man.
Posted by: GreyDuck at January 23, 2014 10:52 AM (3m7pZ)
2
Well done, sir, well done. A nice selection of screen shots, good story telling, and the snark is at just about the right level. Glad to see you back on form.
Posted by: David at January 24, 2014 12:17 PM (dr1tX)
Here We Go Again... Again.
Tuesday is the first day of Spring classes at Duck U, which means the Duck U Bookstore is going to be crazy-go-nuts for the next few days. Pity us, we few, for we will suffer the deluge.
Or something like that, at least.
Posted by: GreyDuck at January 21, 2014 08:24 AM (CUkqs)
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I do have to wonder if working in a college book store is worse than having to actually buy the books. I'm constantly amazed how much they've gone up since I was in school.
Posted by: DrHeinous at January 22, 2014 04:38 PM (/Y+Yb)
1
I was thinking this was the reboot of Ghost in the Shell, I'm now thinking this might be worth watching. I do wish I could find more like GitS & Appleseed, you know noirish SF near future.
Posted by: von Krag at January 19, 2014 12:18 PM (KTzaE)
2
I think that's a frame grab from one of the Evangelion movies.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 19, 2014 12:20 PM (+rSRq)
A Bridge Too... High?
Some many, many years ago, I spent a few days in Stillwater, MN. Ph.Duck's older brother and his family lived there, and I was a guest in their home while Ph.Duck and Momzerduck did... something I don't remember now, perhaps attend a wedding. Something like that. Anyway, being a college kid, I didn't want to just hang out at their (really nice!) house, I wanted to find something fun to do. Hard to do without a car in Stillwater, but not impossible.
After descending the Thousand Stairs Of Doom, I found myself in the Historic Downtown District. To my left was quaint shops, some attractive looking bar & grills, that sort of thing. To my right was the riverside area. I headed to one of the bars... it was a sunny early afternoon and warm, so the dark and air conditioning was welcome. The place, and I will never forget this as long as I live, was called "Cat Ballou's" and had what looked like a life-sized wood-carved statue of Jane Fonda from the movie of the same name near the door. I was pretty much the only person in the place that early in the day... I remember the cheeseburger and fries being tasty, and the beer quite pleasant indeed.
After a couple of hours working on my version of The Great American Novel, I headed back out to the riverside area. Yup, it's a river. Oh look, boats. Pretty girl in a sundress. More boats. Still a river. What the hell is that?
At the time, I had no idea there was such a thing as a lift bridge. Drawbridge, sure. Truss bridge, uh-huh. Suspension, cable-stay, arch and cantilever bridges, you bet. But a lift bridge?!?! What sort of magic is this? I was fascinated! As it turns out, it was stuck in the up position at the time, due to all the equipment being original to when it was built and it sometimes does that, but I didn't care at all. How lovely it was to see such a thing.
I'm sure the traffic that had to detour some ridiculous distance to get across the St Croix river disagreed with my assessment, but that's beside the point. It was the neatest thing I saw during that visit to Minnesota. It's still there, though you have to make an appointment with the State to open it for your boat, but it's still there.
Then came the climb back up the Thousand Stairs of Doom. The climb up was a lot worse than going down, and I changed my plans for the next day so to avoid them. I haven't seen the bridge since.
I still think it's magic, and I can't honestly see a reason to build one over a drawbridge, but it's still awfully cool.
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I think you can build a lift bridge closer to the water than a drawbridge, since you don't need to swing the counterweights. There are actually a lot of lift bridges out here. And they seem to be more common for railroad bridges.
We even have a pivoting bridge on the railroad on Ebey Slough.
Posted by: Mauser at January 12, 2014 11:04 PM (TJ7ih)
Portland is distinctive in as much as a major river (the Willamette) runs pretty much right through the middle of it. As a result, it's crossed by a lot of bridges, and they're a wide variety.
The Steel Bridge and the Hawthorne Bridge and Broadway Bridge are cantilever lift bridges, like yours.
The Morrison Bridge and Burnside Bridge are draw bridges.
Downstream there's a swivel bridge, for rail.
The Sellwood Bridge was built high enough so that it doesn't obstruct river traffic, as was the Fremont Bridge and the Marquam Bridge and the Ross Island Bridge and the St. Johns Bridge.
As I said, we have a lot of bridges, and they're all busy all the time.
I agree that Cantilever Lift Bridges are pretty awesome.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 13, 2014 12:15 AM (+rSRq)
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I used to live in Vancouver WA. IIRC, the bridge on I-5 over the Columbia is also a lift bridge, although for the longest time they've been talking about replacing it. I haven't been down there in over a decade.
Posted by: Mauser at January 13, 2014 05:49 AM (TJ7ih)
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I'm an idiot. That's not a cantilever bridge, it's a truss bridge.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 13, 2014 12:59 PM (+rSRq)
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Cool bridge! The counterweights on a drawbridge have to be much, much heavier than the bridge itself, since they are a short lever arm acting on the much longer bridge deck. In contrast, the counterweights on a lift bridge only have to be equal in weight to the span itself. Therefore, all else being equal, a lift bridge is cheaper to build than an equivalent drawbridge. Or equivalently, for the same cost, a lift bridge can be built of heavier, stronger materials. Of course, the downside is that there is obviously a height limitation on ships passing under the lift bridge.
Mauser: Sure, a drawbridge as we typically picture one does need someplace for the counterweights to move. But there are clever ways of getting around that. The Pegasus Bridge in France is a drawbridge where the counterweight is located above the height of the deck, and the whole structure actually rolls back to raise the bridge. Plus, is has a cool D-Day background story, being one of the first sites targeted for capture by Allied airborne forces.
Posted by: flatdarkmars at January 13, 2014 06:02 PM (0h1CL)
KSP WTF?
I appear to have lost the ability to make something that can go to space. I can't understand why. Even the successful Mun Launcher I fails to reach orbit. I'm surely just doing something wrong, but I'll be darned if I can figure out what it is.
It's frustrating, but also exciting... once I figure out my problem, it'll be all "clear skies and hot jets!"
Or maybe I should say "if". If I figure out my problem.
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Is your problem a "ship falls apart", "I can't keep the pointy end pointed at space", or "ship runs out of fuel" problem? I've found a few times that a ship design that was stable once isn't always stable the next time I l load it onto the pad.
Running in career mode has been very good for my piloting skills, as I do lots of flights with progressively more powerful and complex ships. It hasn't been so good for my ship designing skills, as the answer at low level is not usually the efficient or elegant answer.
I've been watching videos by HOCGaming and Scott Manning, both of which have done good things for my ship building and piloting skills.
Posted by: David at January 13, 2014 12:29 AM (da+4f)
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I've only played in campaign mode, and I don't have the parts for a Mun lander yet... but I've got a pretty nice design that can brute-force Jebediah pretty much anywhere in the system, and occasionally get him home okay!
I found that the fuel crossfeed tool is incredibly useful - I can rig the tanks to empty out in pairs and jettison them when they run empty. Lets me put a decent second stage into orbit, enough fuel to run a Minmus intercept and get home with more than 500 units of fuel left in the can. Probably I could settle for less fuel and more payload, at the moment it's just a science pod with a pilot and a couple solar panels... just the thing for phoning those reports home until you suck all the science points out of a mission, though.
Posted by: Avatar at January 14, 2014 07:39 PM (zJsIy)
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Avatar, if you're getting to orbit with your second stage, you're doing things right. Of course, that's with a pretty loose definition if you're dropping tanks on the way. A ring of external tanks that feed in a spiral to the center and drop as they empty out is called "asparagus staging" and it's pretty much the win button in KSP.
It's pretty amazing what you can do with the basics in career mode, I've seen videos of campaign mode where first flight is sub-orbital, second is orbit, third is a round trip to the Mun, and the fourth was a round trip to Duna. I wasn't anywhere near that quick, but I was trying to be methodical and extract all the easy science at each point along the way. I try and run three or even four copies of each instrument available so I can suck all the points out of each point I hit on a given mission, and not have to go back to that spot.
Posted by: David at January 14, 2014 08:18 PM (da+4f)
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I just run one of each and transmit the results, then juice back up and do it again. Doesn't take a lot of power, a modest ring of single solar panels keeps me juiced up. Haven't tried deploying a big array yet, but I don't really have any need for that much power. Maybe once I'm out in the great dark?
Haven't been playing recently, it's been Fallout NV, SC2, and moving to Hawaii. (My car got here, yay~)
Posted by: Avatar at January 14, 2014 09:26 PM (zJsIy)
... it's been Fallout NV, SC2, and moving to Hawaii.
How is Moving to Hawaii? I hear its second life aspects are excellent, but that combat is unpleasant when it happens. It also is a bit pricey for me ATM.
Posted by: The Brickmuppet at January 14, 2014 10:49 PM (DnAJl)
6
Yeah, they removed some elements from the previous game, Job in Dallas. The weather system is completely revamped and much less annoying, but at the same time, they've taken most of the guns out as well. And the amount of grinding is pretty similar.
The fiancee minigames are worth it on their own, of course.
Posted by: Avatar at January 15, 2014 01:42 PM (IopVv)
To The Mun IIIa: The Search For Something That Flies
After the failure of Mun Rescuer I, it was time to go back to the design phase to come up with something less likely to turn itself into a brightly glowing ball of incandescent gas. An hour or so of tinkering brought forth the cleverly named Mun Rescuer II: This Time It's Personal.
This time with more lights! No, they do nothing for purposes of getting to the Mun, but it does make it look purty-ish! The media beast must be fed, don'tchaknow? It heads into space on the immense power of four Mainsail liquid fueled engines.
See? It leaps off the pad with the greatest of ease, and practically wants to scream into space at a speed guaranteed to rend it into component atoms before the gravity turn. It wasn't until Mun Rescuer II: This Time It's Personal dropped the Orange Cans of Fuel that I realized that there was a problem. Namely, this beast was horrendously underpowered to go to the Mun. The stage that I had intended to use for Translunar Injection was swallowed just getting into a stable orbit.
Worse still, the lander-and-go-home stage clearly didn't have enough gas get to the Mun on it's own. Chalking it down as a good test flight, I deorbited, hoping the PPD-12 Cupola could handle the re-entry stress. Really, the whole endeavor would come down to that... it's pointless if we pick up Bill Kerbin from the Mun, only to fricassee him a few kilometers from home.
Much to my surprise, it didn't turn into something resembling a melted marshmallow... the Cupola really isn't meant for that sort of thing. Even better, the capsule didn't pull apart from the lifeboat when the parachutes opened up. Huzzah! Feh.
So! A spectacularly frustrating first flight. Everything worked perfectly... except for the whole reason this thing exists: getting to the Mun and back. That part? Not so much. But at least Bill Kerman is having fun on the Mun.
Morale is still high, despite all reason.
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I've been trying to get to Duna and back for the last several days. I actually had Jeb stranded on Duna at one point, he landed in one piece but the lander fell over. I should have left well enough alone and mounted a rescue attempt, but I wanted to experiment a bit so I tried rolling the lander a bit with the torque module and then launching when it was pointed vaguely upwards. I kind of expected it to go blooey on me so I did a quicksave first. Sure enough the launch didn't work, only I hadn't actually done a quicksave, and when it reloaded I was about 2 years earlier in my career at my first Minmus landing. Oopsie!
I've since been trying to repeat the Duna mission, but I have less in the way of parts available and can't make that same rocket. I'm actually in orbit over Duna waiting for my window back to Kerbin right now, waiting to see if I've got the juice to get home or not.
Posted by: David at January 09, 2014 03:53 AM (da+4f)
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That's very cool, I didn't know you could do lights.
Posted by: Mauser at January 09, 2014 05:06 AM (TJ7ih)
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The lights are very nice. I forgot to put lights on my first lander, and while it was OK for my first landing, for my second landing I really wanted to land in a specific spot where it was dark, and that didn't work out so well. Hitting a mountain side at ~40m/sec hurts. I also had one time where I spent about 10 minutes trying to get my Kerbal back into the capsule in the dark before realizing I was trying to climb up the wrong side of the lander.
Posted by: David at January 09, 2014 06:23 PM (dr1tX)
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I've been looking at your Mun Rescuer II design up there, and I'd be astonished if it got much past orbit. I only just got access to the orange tanks and mainsails in my career game, but I recall that while they do surprisingly well, they don't do *that* well.
The launcher stages I've been building have been several times larger than that, but I've been trying to move very heavy landers with all the science instruments and the power to bring them back. I don't know how much that lander can weighs in comparison, but I bet that rescue lander is quite a bit heaver than the original one, and for every pound you add at the top, you're going to many many times more in the launch stage.
Posted by: David at January 09, 2014 06:29 PM (dr1tX)
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David, while I understand that you're farther along in the game than I am, part of this series is me learning by my mistakes. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing as I'm doing it, and making it enjoyable for the readers in the process.
Let me do that, 'k? If I need help, believe me, I'll ask.
Posted by: Wonderduck at January 09, 2014 08:41 PM (Izt1u)
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OK, I was just trying to be helpful and keep some comments active, but I can pick other kinds of things to say. I am trying to enhance the fun, not ruin it.
I've hit an interesting wall in my own career, I've finally pulled off the Duna mission I've been working on for a week, and now I have no idea what to do next. I think I want to build a space station or munbase, but I haven't researched most of the necessary parts. I'll probably end up duplicating my Mun, Minmus, and Duna missions, but this time with a three Kerbal crew. I hate to think how big the rockets will get if I'm trying to do that without multiple launches and orbital rendezvous.
Posted by: David at January 09, 2014 09:58 PM (da+4f)
Too Cold To Complain About How Cold It Is
Here, inside, at Pond Central, it's a comfortable 70 degrees. Outside the confines of Pond Central, however, it is -18°F, with a windchill of -45°F! There is a 115 degree difference between inside and outside right the heck now... and it's just short of noon.
It's not the coldest I've experienced, as I lived in Minnesota for two years, but this is easily the coldest I've seen here in Duckford. A couple of hours ago, I stepped outside just for a few seconds. That was a terrible mistake. Fortunately, Duck U is closed for the day, and even better, they announced it early Sunday afternoon!
Holy crepe, it's cold.
UPDATE: It's cold enough that Duck U has shut down for another day already! We're closed on Tuesday... just what this lil' duck needed!
The Magic Of Memory
So there I was, working on the design of Mun Rescuer II, listening to the playoff game between the Chargers and the Bengals on the radio. They're in a time-out, and Ian Eagle and Trent Green, one of the better NFL pairings on "network" radio, are talking about what had just occurred on the field. In the background, the Bengals stadium entertainment system is playing some music that... I've heard before. It's a simple guitar four-chord progression with a bit of fuzz overtop. It stops before anything more than that plays, practically nothing to identify it with, but I know this song.
Except I don't. You could hold a gun to my head and say you're going to pull the trigger and scatter my brains over a 1" x 1" area if I don't tell you the title right now, and you'd best have a kleenex handy to wipe up the mess. I've heard it before. I know I like the tune. I just can't place it, nor where I know it from. I begin to fret over the name... or even just how the song goes... or even where I've heard it fore. ANYTHING I can use to place it. TEN FRIGGIN' MINUTES later, I shut down Kerbal Space Program, throw on some warm clothes, and head out to the gas station for a bottle of grape juice and a 12-pack of Sprite before the arctic vortex hits and the temperature get flushed down the sewer. Of course, the entire way there, I'm trying to figure out the tune. It
isn't until I'm back in the car after obtaining my liquid bounty that
something dredges out of my memory: "the rock." Then the certain
knowledge that it was used in an AMV from years ago. Suddenly, the mile-long drive home from the gas station feels like a hundred miles... I need to search for this!
I hop onto yootoob, punch in "the rock AMV", and start scrolling through the list... and there it was. Sure as heck, that's it... it's a lousy copy, so I search for a better one, but that's the song! I'm practically dancing in my chair in celebration as I load it up. Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you the song that I heard about five seconds of: Apollo Four Forty's "Stop The Rock"!
I would love to have the chance, one day, to ask Allison Keith (Naoko) and Laura Chapman (Reiko) how they went about saying their lines in the dub for Golden Boy. I nearly coughed up a lung from laughing while watching their particular episodes (And Episode 6.).
Posted by: cxt217 at January 07, 2014 09:27 PM (sEA0S)
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Nifty! The thing I noticed is that the style of the character designs feels familiar, but I can't attach a name to it.
Posted by: Mauser at January 08, 2014 02:41 AM (TJ7ih)
To The Mun III: Rescue Bill Kerman!
After the truly Kerbal Space Program-level success of my Mun landing, it was time to go rescue the first Kerbal on the Mun. Which meant, of course, designing a new Mun-ship!
Presenting the cleverly-named "Mun Rescuer I". It didn't take very long to come up with the design, since it's simply Mun Launcher I with a PPD-1 Hitchhiker Storage Container ("The HSC was an invention of necessity - how do we store 4 Kerbals
on-orbit without any real provisions for return? Who needed this
remains a mystery, as do his motives.") stuck under the Mk1 capsule, more fuel cans and six landing struts. No way this baby's gonna break off the nuclear rocket, nuh-uh!
In retrospect, I probably should have spent a little more time on the design phase.
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Bill will just have to hold his breath until he turns green, and his eyes bug out.
Oh.
Well, hopefully he can do science reports.
Posted by: Mauser at January 04, 2014 03:55 AM (TJ7ih)
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I need to strand a Kerbal or three out somewhere just so I can have the fun of trying to rescue them, but so far my flights have either been successful, or fail so spectacularly that there are no stranded Kerbals to worry about.
Posted by: David at January 04, 2014 01:22 PM (da+4f)
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Some of my heavy-lift vehicles have to be flown to orbit at less than full throttle, otherwise they'll self-disassemble somewhere around max Q. The Mainsail engines are mighty beasts and demand respect.
Posted by: flatdarkmars at January 04, 2014 04:35 PM (0h1CL)
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And I do mean heavy-lift vehicles, like this one used to boost the components of my permanent Munbase.
(Hooray I can post comments with links again!)
Posted by: flatdarkmars at January 04, 2014 04:55 PM (0h1CL)
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That's am impressive lifter and Munbase, flatdarkmars. I haven't built anything like that yet, I need to get into that stuff soon.
Posted by: David at January 04, 2014 06:37 PM (da+4f)
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I can honestly say I've never had so much fun reading posts from people playing a game that I'm unlikely ever to actually own on account of it requiring mental faculties I completely lack. The Royal Squirrel Patrol Space Force entries and these adventures of Wonderduck's are an absolute hoot.
Posted by: GreyDuck at January 05, 2014 12:15 AM (CUkqs)
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Does the program name the kerbalnauts, or does the user?
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 05, 2014 12:33 PM (+rSRq)
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The program does. Most of them are randomly named, like "Ludfurt" or "Munfel", though 1:20 of them have a proper name like "Al" or "Jim".
However, your first three Kerbalnauts are always named Bill, Bob, and of course the legendary Jebediah.
Posted by: Wonderduck at January 05, 2014 02:02 PM (Izt1u)
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That's a pity, because it seems to me that one of them ought to be named "Clem". It just seems like the right kind of name.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 05, 2014 03:41 PM (+rSRq)
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So that means that when someone seems to be using a kerbelnaut with a different name, those in the know can snicker because it means that they've been killing their kerbelnauts (which isn't easy because they're so hardy), right?
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 05, 2014 03:50 PM (+rSRq)
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It doesn't necessarily mean their Kerbals are dying... the Munbase linked above holds 25 Kerbals, which necessitated a bit of a recruiting spree. But it certainly could be that old Jeb, Bob, and Bill have been shuffled off if they aren't in use. Kerbals may be hardy where air, food, and water are concerned, but they don't stand up very well to abrupt lithobraking maneuvers.
Posted by: flatdarkmars at January 05, 2014 05:48 PM (0h1CL)
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By default the game will put Jeb in your capsule if it only fits one Kerbal, and Jeb, Bill, and Bob if it fits three. But there is an astronaut academy where you can recruit plenty more of them, and there isn't any kind of limit on how many active Kerbals you have. In my case I use Jeb, Bill and Bob for the dramatic stuff that I expect to succeed, and use lesser Kerbals for stuff that is likely to blow up or is just a repeat of a mission I've already done.
Posted by: David at January 05, 2014 06:48 PM (da+4f)
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The game does keep track of your various Kerbalnauts... for example, it won't let me use Bill, since he's currently waiting for rescue on the Mun.
I want to get him back, since he's one of The First Three who get the orange jumpsuits. All the rest just get gray ones.
Posted by: Wonderduck at January 05, 2014 08:25 PM (Izt1u)
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GreyDuck, I'm glad you're enjoying the posts. But don't let a fear of needing high brain power keep you from playing KSP. It's not like we sit down with calculators and spreadsheets and figure out the technical details of a rocket. The Kerbal way is to slap together a bunch of rocket parts, put it on the pad, and see what happens. After you've used a given engine part a few times, you get an impression of how powerful it is, how long it burns, etc. Then you can think while building your next rocket "can that engine lift this stage? Probably not-add more of them!" Then you look at the wild array of tanks and engines and decide whether it will hold together, whether you can keep it pointed straight, etc, etc. Most of those things you will consider you will learn from the experience of the previous rocket where you couldn't. But watching a rocket violently dissassemble itself and send booster flying all over the sky is part of the fun.
Posted by: David at January 05, 2014 11:59 PM (da+4f)
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I watched one youtube video where a guy designed and built a rocket to get him to Duna (aka Mars) and back. He did it on the fly, without any references, and with a highly limited subset of parts, in about half an hour. His first attempt to get to Duna with it failed, but it was because of his piloting, not the rocket.
I just spent a few hours designing, building, and testing the rocket that I hope will get Jeb to Duna and back. That's after I spent a few hours last night doing the same thing before realizing that my basic concept simply wasn't going to do it and starting over. The rocket I just came up with weighs nearly a kiloton, and meets my first criteria, which is to get my lander and return vehicle to orbit without using any fuel from the transfer stage. I'm pretty sure the transfer stage is massive overkill for a trip to Duna, but I won't know if the lander and return vehicle can do their job until I try tomorrow. If not, then I get to build a rescue mission, which will be fun.
Posted by: David at January 06, 2014 12:04 AM (da+4f)
16...I'm unlikely ever to actually own on account of it requiring mental faculties I completely lack.
You think I know anything about what I'm doing? I don't even know three-quarters of the basic instructions of the game, and I'm still having a blast.
Quite literally in some cases.
Posted by: Wonderduck at January 06, 2014 12:54 AM (Izt1u)
To The Mun! II: Electric Munaloo!
After hours upon hours of poorly thought out mission parameters, unsuccessful orbital routines and rapid unplanned disassemblies...
...I have finally figured out how to to routinely make it into orbit. As Robert Heinlein pointed out, "once you're in orbit, you're halfway to anywhere." So, like any good Kerbalnaut, I set my sights on My First Mun Landing®. How hard could it be?
Here is the trusty steed, the cleverly named "Mun Launcher I", in the middle of the gravity turn for orbit, a short time before dropping the heavy boosters. Players of the game might recognize that I'm actually heading towards a retrograde orbit... what can I say? I'm an iconoclast! I've also had four consecutive successful Munar orbit launches this way, and zero successful Munar orbit launches going the normal way. It's probably just me.
1
For my birthday (the 31st) I went legit and bought the full version. So many parts! I found the Wiki, which is very helpful so far (I didn't know how to set up the staging).
I once made Munar orbit with the demo, 7 stage rocket, I think I even made it home.
Learning to make good use of those Maneuver markers is next on the agenda. It would probably ruin the game if they made them autopilot points.
I do wish there were a little more on-screen documentation/Controls, instead of bringing back the days of needing a keyboard cheat sheet for each stage of the game.
Posted by: Mauser at January 01, 2014 11:56 PM (TJ7ih)
Posted by: GreyDuck at January 02, 2014 11:17 AM (3m7pZ)
8
Nicely done! A Mun landing in true Kerbal style.
After your original post got me back into the game, I've been running in career mode. It's a LOT harder to get to the Mun when you have a limited set of parts, but it's also a great learning process. The rocket that got me to the Mun and back was quite a bit bigger and more complex than yours, but I didn't have the big fuel tanks, fuel cross-feed, or nuclear engines available. It turns out that Minmus is actually an easier target, that same rocket and lander did that as well for their next mission, and was able to do a few orbits of the Mun on it's way back for more research.
My latest goal was to get a probe out to Duna. I finally managed it last night after redesigning my rocket about 5 times. The rocket that finally did it was scarily huge, and even so I wasn't lifting a return vehicle, my lander didn't have the juice to get back to Duna orbit from the surface.
Posted by: David at January 02, 2014 11:30 AM (vtKcn)
9
My Mun lander had a central "400" tank with a pair of "200" tanks on the side with the 909 engines on them, fuel feed from the center tank to the exterior ones. Put on four of the very simplest small solar panels, radial parachutes on top of the side tanks and the pod, an extra battery or two, and an SAS on the central tank just above the decoupler, and you've got a lander that can easily handle itself from Munar injection through several Munar landings and a return to Kerbin.
You've gone way overboard on the struts, especially if you've got all the parts available and are using medium or heavy connectors. For tanks below 800, I connect them to the central body with one light strut at top and bottom, and connect them to their neighbor likewise with one strut at top and bottom, and that's plenty strong enough to hold things together without any flex. For the big 3200 tanks, a similar pattern of medium connectors is good enough. If your lander or transfer stage get big enough, you might tie them to the lower stages with struts out to the boosters to keep things from flexing.
I don't see much in the way of control on that ship. For something that size, I'd have winglets on the external tanks, and a large SAS at the top of the central tank, backed up with RCS rockets if I'm going further than the Mun and need precise trajectory control. RCS is also good for landers, as in a pinch it's extra thrust if you run the main tanks dry.
Posted by: David at January 02, 2014 11:44 AM (vtKcn)
10
If that's a nuclear rocket, I think your astronaut has a more immediate problem to worry about than running out of air. A NERVA type booster becomes intensely radioactive during use, and he's standing a couple of feet from the business end of the thing....
Posted by: Ed Hering at January 02, 2014 05:42 PM (aEOAA)
11
David sez: You've gone way overboard on the struts, especially if you've got all
the parts available and are using medium or heavy connectors.
The first version of Mun Launcher I only had one strut to each, and one from each to the body of the command unit. In perfect KSP fashion, they fell off on launch... and fell onto the "GetMeUpHigh" stage. In perfect KSP fashion, it all went Boom. So... OVERSTRUT!
David sez more: I don't see much in the way of control on that ship.
Don't need much. There's an Inline Advanced Stabilizer up there under the Decoupler attached to the Mk1 capsule. Further, there's only need for one maneuver for this puppy: the gravity turn. If the "GetMeUpHigh" stage needs to do anything more than that, well, "You are not going to space today." The rest of it is handled quite nicely by the IAS... in real life, I suspect the rotations/second this thing can do would kill a person.
Posted by: Wonderduck at January 02, 2014 07:09 PM (Izt1u)
12
Ed sez: If that's a nuclear rocket, I think your astronaut has a more immediate problem to worry about.
Yes, but at least he'll stay warm.
Posted by: Wonderduck at January 02, 2014 07:11 PM (Izt1u)
13
Those barrel things look horribly non-aerodynamic. Gad.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 03, 2014 01:35 AM (+rSRq)
14
Yeah, the aerodynamic drag model of KSP leaves much to be desired. It used to be that each part had a drag factor, but it basically just boiled down to more parts and more mass = more drag, so adding aerodynamic nose cones and payload shrouds was actually a bad thing. I heard that they patched it a bit in the latest version, but I need to verify that.
Posted by: David at January 03, 2014 03:06 AM (da+4f)
15
I've been inspired by the Wonderduck, and have decided to blog my own KSP adventure.
These are the stories of the Royal Squirrel Patrol Space Force.
Posted by: David at January 03, 2014 03:07 AM (da+4f)
16
Steven, those "barrel things" are the fuel tanks for the Munar Stage. And yes, in real life, they'd be as aerodynamic as a cement truck. But, as David points out, there isn't really a drag model in KSP... yet. Near as I can tell, every piece of equipment, from a narrow strut to a sideways mounted Orange Can Of Fuel, has the same drag.
Every fiber of my being wanted to put a nosecone on them, believe me.
Posted by: Wonderduck at January 03, 2014 07:16 PM (Izt1u)
New Year's Eve 2013
Well, that year sucked awfully hard.
To all the readers of The Pond who bailed, I don't blame you.
To all the readers of The Pond, old and new, who stuck with the place despite it all, thank you. You're all great, and I'm lucky to have you. I hope to be able to tell you just what all has caused this soon, but for now, thanks.
Here's looking forwards to a great 2014, one and all.
Michael Schumacher In Bad Shape
Sad and troubling news from the world of Formula 1 today as recently-retired and seven-time world champion Michael Schumacher is currently in a medically-induced coma and is "fighting for his life."
Schumacher was skiing off-trail in the French Alps with his teenage son when he went down and slammed his head into a rock. He was taken to a local hospital where initial reports were that he had suffered a concussion. Doctors recognized something more serious than that, as he could not respond to questions and his limbs moved involuntarily. He was quickly sent to University Hospital in Grenoble. Once there, his condition quickly deteriorated, and surgery was required to lower intercranial pressures. Postoperative scans showed that he had "bilateral diffuse hemorrhagic lesions" on the brain.
He was put into a medical coma to make recovery easier, as well as being kept in a cooled state. His medical staff has publicly said that they have no idea "what the outcome will be yet. All we can do is wait." His family is at his bedside, and he's being monitored closely. The frightening thought is that brain injuries often get worse after hours or days; the case of Natasha Richardson is a chilling example.
Unsurprisingly, the F1 world and beyond is rallying to his support. Former President Bill Clinton, with whom Schumacher has worked on The Clinton Foundation, chimed in with good wishes, as have pretty much the entire F1 grid, most if not all the teams, ex-drivers... you name it, they've probably said something. I think the best one that I've seen has to have been the one from Sauber, for whom he raced sportscars in 1991:
Hard to argue with that. It's no secret that Schumacher wasn't F1U!'s favorite driver, but today, we'll call him "Slappy" affectionately: Good luck, Slappy, we're all pulling you.
The Evangelion Movies: 1.11 You Are (not) Alone, pt 5
I can do this. I can finish this movie writeup by the end of the year. I will. It's been nearly four months since the last installment, and in all that time Shinji's face has been unpunched. This can not be allowed to stand! But then again, at the end of the last installment, he was being boiled alive inside Unit-01, so he may not be around much longer. On the one hand, that means our last best chance for survival has just been killed, but on the other hand, it's Shinji. The world might be a better place without his whiny arse. Well, we won't know what's going on until we get into it, so let's just do this thing!
Okay, sure, he needed cardiac massage in the Entry Plug. Okay, sure, everybody is running around frantically rattling off medical terms, none of which sound good at all. Okay, sure, they put him in something that looks like a carbon fiber coffin and lock the lid. Actually, I'm pretty sure they just did that because they wanted to. I mean, wouldn't you??? Back up at the surface...
The latest Angel is apparently part duck. If you don't understand the reference, count yourself very, very lucky. If you do understand the reference... *brofist*. Except, ew, what's wrong with you? Anyway, it's digging its way down to NERV HQ, and ain't nothin' they've got 'bout to stop it, knowwhatI'msayin'? They've got about 10 hours before it reaches HQ, Unit-01 needs serious repairs, Unit-00 (with Teh Rei) needs to be "recalibrated" before it can be activated. Looks pretty grim, until Misato mentions something about the Japanese Self-Defense Force's "secret weapon" and activates Operation Yashima.
Within ONE HOUR, heavy equipment from around the country has been gathered around Tokyo-III and is beginning to do... heavy equipment-type things. Huge cranes. Giant earth-movers. Triangular helicopters carrying stuff. Men putting things on top of other things. Industry! Science and technology! Something is mentioned about a "Positronic Cannon", which sounds cool. After a couple more hours, things are coming together: Unit-01 is being fitted with a "sniping system," power cables are being run to Tokyo-III from all across Japan, and everything is a "go" at Midnight. All that's needed is a pilot for Unit-01, but he's dead, right?
Dammit!
Posted by: GreyDuck at December 30, 2013 08:25 AM (CUkqs)
3
It's been so long since I watched the TV series that I can't compare point to point, but it's always seemed to me that the rebuild movies were more coherent, with a tighter plot and some explanation for the behavior of the characters. And oh, the visual effects and music! I've rewatched that climax scene of 1.1 I don't know how many times, with the volume cranked to 11 from the first klaxon to the end of the credits.
Posted by: David at December 30, 2013 11:13 AM (vtKcn)
4
BTW, I may have found a girlfriend for Gendo Plushyferret.
Posted by: Mauser at December 31, 2013 01:41 AM (TJ7ih)
Doctor Who: I Might Regret This
Now that Matt Smith's four year run as The Doctor has come to an end, I'm going to do something bonecrushingly stupid... I'm going to state a preference for one recent Doctor over another.
To whit: I think Matt Smith was a more successful Doctor than David Tennant. This is not to say that Tennant wasn't good in the role; he clearly was. After the disastrous run of Christopher Eccleston's PTSD Doctor1, Tennant could have sunk the franchise completely. He didn't, however, and without his years as the time-traveler, Doctor Who would not... could not... be as huge as it currently is.
In a broad sense, the success of Tennant's run is based on amazing episodes. Take away "Waters of Mars," the Christmas specials (particularly 2007's "Voyage of the Damned", aka "the one with Kylie Minogue"), "Silence in the Library" (aka "the first one with River Song"), the wonderful "School Reunion", and my favorite of the bunch "The Girl in the Fireplace", and some others that I can't be bothered to look up right now, and you've got a rather lackluster overall picture.
Smith, Tennant's successor in the role of the Last Time Lord, brought more energy and humor to The Doctor. His success is undoubtedly based on the entire run of episodes, as opposed to individual ones. That's not to say there weren't excellent episodes; there surely were. "Vincent and The Doctor," "The Doctor's Wife", and "Asylum of the Daleks" immediately come to mind. However, Smith's Doctor is almost a throwback to the original serial version of Doctor Who. While each episode is a standalone or half of a two-part, they all fit into the overarching storyline for the season, whatever that might be.
In any case, I believe that if you choose an episode at random of Doctor 10, and one at random of 11, you are more likely to see a very good one with #11.
Smith also had the better "supporting cast" with him as well. Amy & Rory were his companions for two-and-a-half seasons, and while they probably should have moved on earlier than that, they were clearly superior to anything Tennant had with him... though Rose was no slouch. It may be personal bias that believes that makes me think that Clara will be better than either A&R or Rose.
So, yes, I find that Matt Smith is the best of the recent Doctors, and probably ranks just below Tom Baker in my mind in the Great List of Doctors. The comment area is below... let the Flame War commence!
1 I will admit that the more I've watched his one season, the more I've come to appreciate what he brought to the role.
1
Crap, I lost my comment. I hope this does not become a bad duplicate.
I stopped watching
in my teens after Pertwee, Baker and Davison (the All Creatures guy). I was alerted to the renewed series with Eccelston and I loved it from the get go. I think that the writers, Moffat and Davies in particular,
deserve a lot of the credit. At least as much as the actors. The
stories were so interesting, the ones that had long arcs were so well
conceived that it really pulled me back in.
Tennant was the better actor, but Smith was physically more how I expected the Doctor to act. Doing the "about faces" that Tennant could execute, both verbally and character-wise is a hard thing to pull off for an actor and he did a great job with it. Smith had body movements that would be unbelievable if the character was not established beforehand. He pulled that off.
I guess I don't have a favorite, but I will say that, with every regeneration, I fretted how the new guy would top the old guy, and usually by the second episode I was hooked. That is every bit the writer's doing as the actors. Each script considered the new personality, and the personality of the actor himself. It takes talent to do that.
Last, you mentioned characters. I think that Amy and Rory would have worked well for either Tennant or Smith, but I am not sure that Martha or Donna wouold work with Smith. Certainly not as good as with Tennant.
Posted by: topmaker at December 28, 2013 04:47 PM (2yZsg)
2
IDK, Smith left me cold. I thought Tennant was pretty good, tho no one has managed to top Tom Baker.
The thing that really made me stop watching the show is how BBCA was scheduling the damned thing. I could never figure out when it was on or what episode was showing, and when I did manage to find it, it was a rerun. This was about the time it switched from Tennant to Smith, so it's been a while since I bothered with the series.
Oh well.
Obligatory old fan/ hipster line: "I liked Doctor Whobefore it was cool!"
Posted by: Ed Hering at December 28, 2013 07:48 PM (aEOAA)
I'm still trying to work out whether the whole of Matt Smith's tenure constitutes a single stable time loop.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at December 28, 2013 10:54 PM (PiXy!)
4
I have a lot of respect for Smith and Tennant and Eccleston as actors, but the show and the actors are consistently directed as though the whole thing were a panto instead of a TV show. It's a constant assault on one's suspension of disbelief, as is the whole bizarre aggrandizement of the Doctor by the writers, coupled with their obvious extreme difficulty in portraying him as genuinely virtuous and wise instead of a tin-plated dictator, with delusions of godhood supported solely by script control.
There are some good bits, but they're not really enough to keep me watching. I'm glad other people manage to enjoy the new show, but personally, I think I've gotten a lot more solid enjoyment, and suspension of disbelief, out of Joseon X-Files, Vampire Prosecutor, or Young Justice Bao. So yeah, clearly what we need is a South Korean drama version of Doctor Who.
Posted by: Suburbanbanshee at December 29, 2013 12:30 AM (cvXSV)
5
Personally, I liked Tennant best mainly because I couldn't stand to look at the tall gangly Mr. Chin. BUT, they were both very good for the very different Doctors they portrayed. (And Smith did grow on me, a little).
Each Doctor gets companions that are suited for them because, well, they're written that way. And in general, I think the writing improved once Davies went away (and his compulsion to make everyone gay.) Although Moffat is a little too horror oriented for my tastes.
This also seems like a good place to drop this little gift I previously put on twitter:
"The Doctor is very sensitive. The Time War made him Hurt."
Posted by: Mauser at December 29, 2013 12:31 AM (TJ7ih)
6
Oh, and as for catching the show, I use eztv to catch the torrents.
Posted by: Mauser at December 29, 2013 12:32 AM (TJ7ih)
7Moffat is a little too horror oriented for my tastes.
So his writing is too much like... Doctor Who for your tastes?
Posted by: Wonderduck at December 29, 2013 07:09 AM (Izt1u)
8
There's horror and then there's horror. I mean, clearly you wouldn't want to do a Doctor Who take on Jack the Ripper that featured pieces of organ flying around. You might do invisible serial killing time travelers or flying knife aliens invading, but having middle-aged ladies of easy virtue with their guts and other parts spread everywhere? No. So no splatter horror. No rapists of adults or children.
Similarly, the traditional Doctor Who horror was geared at scaring the daylights out of children and being creepy for adults -- but not being so bad as to traumatize children or adults. You didn't know whether it would be something utterly strange and fantastic, or something close to home.
But there also needs to be something for those members of the audience who aren't scared, so that they will not become bored. Horror can't be the only dramatic value in a Doctor Who ep ever, because it gets boring to be under constant suspense (or just not to be scared). The whole scary clown thing is always a mistake, because plenty of people will be staring at the screen incredulously or laughing helplessly at the whole concept of scary clowns. (Yeah, Sylvester McCoy seasons, I'm looking at you.)
Posted by: Suburbanbanshee at December 29, 2013 10:02 PM (cvXSV)
9
I don't watch Doctor Who, but is that still from a zombie episode or something? The pallor, the sunken eyes, the pronounced orbital bones... they look like extras from Day of the Dead or Night of the Comet.
Posted by: Mitch H. at December 31, 2013 08:45 AM (jwKxK)
Happy Day After Christmas
I'm tired, I'm either sad or maudlin, I'm annoyed, and I had to work today. I'm going to take a nap then go to sleep.
Thank you, everybody.
1
St. Hildegarde of Bingen recommends a nice sugary licorice-root and fennel bulb tea for those days when one is full of melancholy. I recommend chocolate (just for the magnesium, of course!), although of course I have absolutely nothing against licorice or fennel.
Posted by: Suburbanbanshee at December 26, 2013 10:18 PM (cvXSV)
2
Whenever you're having a bad day, you can at least console yourself with the thought that you have it better than your poor brethren in Taiwan.
Giant yellow duck explodes in Taiwan - again!
From the article text, discussing a previous such disaster: "Powerful winds caused the duck's rear end to burst" Ouch!
Posted by: David at December 31, 2013 12:01 PM (vtKcn)
Christmas 2013
Not nearly as good as the image I had in my mind. Oh well. I wish I could have done the 12 Days of Duckmas this year, but there was just no time.
A happy and joyous Christmas to you and yours from all of us here at The Pond!
Christmas Eve Tunage
It's Christmas Eve. For the past few weeks, the only music I've been able to play at the Duck U Bookstore has been... you guessed it... Christmas music. I am not ashamed to say that I'd rather gut myself like a fish than do that. Which means it's time for a special CHRISTMAS EVE TUNAGE with DJ Wonderduck!!!
There won't be ANY Christmas music in this one, oh no! Just great rockin' good times in an attempt to crush the holiday music out of my brain. Let's not wait, let's just do this! TUNAGE!!!
1
A Kerbal space program video would be awesome. I need to toy with that again.
I have one favorite Christmas song, the Waitresses' "Christmas Rapping" but just because I love the rhyme inside one line. "A&P Has provided me with the world's smallest Turkey."
Posted by: Mauser at December 25, 2013 06:13 AM (TJ7ih)
Posted by: Wonderduck at December 25, 2013 07:01 AM (Izt1u)
3
I thought I had. Hasn't changed since last year. Although oddly, I haven't heard ANY Christmas music this year.
Posted by: Mauser at December 25, 2013 09:14 AM (TJ7ih)
4
World of Narue is great to watch after you have seen some heavy series like Ergo Proxy or somesuch. It's a palette cleanser of sorts.
That's a great video. Thanks for posting it.
Merry Christmas!
Posted by: topmaker at December 25, 2013 01:05 PM (2yZsg)
5
Once retailers start playing Christmas music, I immunize myself with the HP Lovecraft Historical Society's solstice carols. Then if I walk into a store without my iPod, I'll be able to keep the normal lyrics from infecting my brain.
-j
Posted by: J Greely at December 25, 2013 08:45 PM (+cEg2)
Yamato vs Iowa: The Best Laid Plans
Last night, I sat down to create a post detailing the outcome of a fight between an Yamato-class battleship of the Imperial Japanese Navy and an Iowa-class battleship from the US Navy. Hardly new ground, this, but it would have been a first for The Pond. Except there was a teeny tiny little problem.
After doing research, racking my brain, and a lot of staring at the ceiling, I simply could not come up with a way that the Yamato had a legitimate chance to win, short of stupidly restrictive rules. Limiting the area of combat to 20 miles or whatever, for example. Without doing that, there just doesn't seem to be a way that the Iowa could lose, save for luck.
The Japanese ship's main (only?) advantage is her 18.1" guns' longer range. The Type 94 had a range of 26 miles, while the American 16"/50 Mk 7 could throw a shell (essentially) 24 miles. Penetration ability for the two was found to be roughly the same. But at all ranges, the US gun was more accurate.
So unless the Yamato could put an unlikely round on target in that two mile stretch where the Iowa couldn't respond, almost everything pointed toward the technically smaller ship's advantage. She was faster by at least six knots, her armor layout was better, the fire control was much better, even the secondary battery would better. Other than sheer size and an amazing amount of built-in buoyancy (a Yamato-class ship was designed to have every compartment outside of her armored box area ["A" turret to "X" turret"] flooded and still float), the Japanese ship had one other thing going her way: the only impenetrable armor ever put to sea.
The armor on the front of the three main gun turrets on the Yamato was 26" thick, sloped at 45°. In US Navy testing after the war, this armor could be penetrated only when an Iowa's gun was placed at 0° inclination to the armor plate, and at a range of zero yards... in other words, a completely unrealistic situation in battle. In any likely combat situation, there was no way to punch through the armor on the front of a Yamato's main turret.
So, one advantage, I suppose, but not one to hang a battle on. The only way the chances of victory for the Japanese begins to become realistic is if they can close the range, so to counteract the huge fire control advantage the American ship has. If that happened, then you're looking at a coinflip, maybe even a Japanese advantage as their superior weight of broadside plummets down. But with their six knot speed advantage, the Americans can decide the range and keep it there.
So, good idea for a post, but it kinda doesn't work. It happens. A better battle might be Yamato vs South Dakota, since a SoDak is, for all intents and purposes, a slower Iowa. Maybe in the future.
One of Dunnigan's books (I think it was "Dirty Little Secrets of WWII") has exactly this analysis, considering a hypothetical battle between four Iowas and four Yamatos. He comes to the same conclusion: the Yamatos get creamed.
Even at range the Iowas have the advantage, because they can fire twice as fast, and because they had radar targeting. The Yamato's armor belt turns out to be less impressive than it should be, because it was made with inferior steel and mounted badly. The Iowa's armor belt wasn't as thick but it was better made.
The biggest differences were speed (Iowa was 4 knots faster according to Dunnigan), gunnery (Iowa could fire twice as fast) and targeting (the Iowa had radar) and though there's always luck in battle, the Iowas had a significant edge.
It almost happened! Iowa and Yamato were both involved in the Leyte Gulf operation, and except for Halsey chasing a decoy, they might have met!
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at December 22, 2013 12:37 PM (+rSRq)
2
Did the Yamato ever fire its main guns in combat?
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at December 22, 2013 12:40 PM (+rSRq)
3
For that matter, did Musashi ever fire its main guns in combat?
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at December 22, 2013 01:09 PM (+rSRq)
4
Yes, but not the way you mean. During Leyte Gulf, she fired sanshikidan (incendiary shotgun rounds for AAA use, in effect) roundsfrom her main armament; this resulted in an explosion of the middle gun of "A" turret.
She never did fire her guns in anger at a surface target.
Posted by: Wonderduck at December 22, 2013 01:15 PM (Izt1u)
5
Sorry, I didn't see the Yamato part of the question.
The Yamato certainly did fire her main guns in combat! She was part of Kurita's Center Force during the Battle Off Samar, the group that stumbled into Taffy-3. Yamato put 18" holes into the Gambier Bay and put at least one and possibly more 18" rounds into the Hoel.
Posted by: Wonderduck at December 22, 2013 01:23 PM (Izt1u)
The ironic thing was the armor mounted on the IOWA-class was not all that good according to the standards of the day. Class 'A' and 'B' armor plate used by the US Navy were inferior to some of their foreign counterparts (Though contrary to what some people believe, not the Japanese.), which the US Navy apparently did not realize until just before WW2, by which time it was too late. The need for production during the war precluded the introduction of much better armor. It still does not justify the rubbishing of the IOWAs by certain folks at Avalanche Press and the late David Brown, to mention a few.
Not that the Japanese were any better. The standard armor used for the Yamato-class was a slightly improved version of the Vickers armor the Japanese obtained during WWI. The Japanese made it easier to make the armor from domestic resources (Something which some nations - most notably Germany, fail to do so.), but the level of protection was only marginally improved. They DID develop significantly better armor, but none of it saw production or service.
Posted by: cxt217 at December 22, 2013 04:39 PM (l1UEN)
7
I seem to recall hearing that either way, the armor of an Iowa-class battleship would shrug off a modern anti-ship missile like a spitball.
Posted by: Mauser at December 22, 2013 06:37 PM (TJ7ih)
8
An Iowa would probably shrug off an anti-ship missile if it hit the side armor. Problem is, ASMs also had a "pop-up" attack pattern, in that it'd come in low, then zoom climb just before hitting the target. It would then dive into the target from above... and the Iowa's deck armor is substantially thinner than its side.
Would they sink her? No, probably not, but trashing her topsides is just as effective. "Mission kill" as opposed to "kill kill." Repairing an Iowa these days would a nightmare, come to think of it...
Posted by: Wonderduck at December 22, 2013 07:23 PM (Izt1u)
9
It's a lost technology, like building a Saturn V.
Posted by: Mauser at December 22, 2013 08:30 PM (TJ7ih)
10
A kamikaze actually models the effect and impact of a modern ASM quite well. The armor belt would shrug off the impact of the attack, but the mission critical parts of the ship that could not be protected by armor could not do the same.
Posted by: cxt217 at December 22, 2013 10:54 PM (l1UEN)
11
With regard to the South Dakota, I long ago read a study that concluded that "Battleship X" would have a very good chance of taking either of the 'Peace Goddesses' if she could maintain the range. It turns out that the shorter 16 inch guns she shipped had much better deck penetration than the 50 caliber rifles on the Iowa, despite firing the same shells. The question would be whether her captain would stay at a range where her plunging fire would be effective or (not knowing anything about Yamato's deck armor) try to close the range...in which case the odds would grow long indeed.
Posted by: The Brickmuppet at December 23, 2013 11:04 AM (DnAJl)
I have to see that study myself and while the standard AP round for the SoDaks were 2200 lb sluggers, the IOWAs' standard AP round was the heavyweight 2700 lb. Both classes could and did fire the differently sized AP rounds from what they were designed for, but they used different standard AP rounds.
C.T.
Posted by: cxt217 at December 23, 2013 02:59 PM (N3TvP)
13One of Dunnigan's books (I think it was "Dirty Little Secrets of WWII") has exactly this analysis...
As it turns out, it's "Victory at Sea" by Dunnigan and Nofi. I started re-reading it last night and stumbled across the article.
Posted by: Wonderduck at December 23, 2013 08:57 PM (Izt1u)
Posted by: Wonderduck at December 25, 2013 06:57 AM (Izt1u)
16
This is why the Yamato really needed that wave motion gun. (And that redemptive rebuild and motive for fighting, and the much better fighters, and the wave motion warp drive, and....)
Posted by: Suburbanbanshee at December 26, 2013 10:22 PM (cvXSV)
17
I'd say it would depend on who got in the first vital hit or series of hits. If Iowa could blind Yamato by taking out her main fire control director early on (like what happened to Bismarck in her final battle) or score a lucky rudder hit, then she would be meat on the table for the Iowa and her superior speed, maneuverbility, and fire control. But the Yamato could very easily score crippling hits on Iowa's engines or boilers via short rounds that penetrate under the waterline and thus negate her speed/maneuver advantage. Nothing's sure in a combat situation. I sometimes wonder how the Battle of the Denmark Strait would've turned out had Bismarck not scored that freak hit on Hood that blew her magazines.
Posted by: diamond dave at January 06, 2014 02:30 PM (MK+sE)
Dave, when Dunnigan did his analysis, he stipulated that he was considering an action between 4 Yamatos and 4 Iowas, precisely to reduce the luck factor. One ship might get crippled by a lucky hit, but it isn't going to happen four times. The battle would be decided by the fighting characteristics of the ships, which is what he was looking at in his analysis.
And he concluded that the Iowa's would win.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 06, 2014 06:37 PM (+rSRq)
But the Yamato could very easily score crippling hits on Iowa's engines or boilers via short rounds that penetrate under the waterline and thus negate her speed/maneuver advantage.
Given that there is only one confirmed case in the Pacific War where a Type 91 diving round actually worked as the Japanese intended it to, this would truly be a Golden BB shot (All the more so given the tight patterns the Japanese used for their shots.). We have not even gotten to how fast the IOWA could run on three screws or down one boiler room - unlike many British designs, knocking out one boiler or engine room was highly unlikely to take out another engine room or boiler.
Such hits would decide the battle essentially at once, but you can not really count on them occurring when you need them.
Ob: Brickmuppet's point - I looked up the stats and you are correct that the 16"/45 mounted by the SoDaks had better deck penetration than the 16"/50 mounted by the IOWAs while firing the same 2700 lb AP round. But the performance was generally small, and the 16"/50 were rated at longer ranges than the 16"/45.
Posted by: cxt217 at January 07, 2014 08:59 PM (sEA0S)